Mindfulness Skill 10: Equanimity

TRANSCRIPT

Interviewer:

You're listening to use jam. And we're in the Morning Show with your morning show host Lachlan Bose. Right now as it's a Thursday. I have on the other end of the line, Dr. Patrick Jones. Patrick comes on air each week to discuss a different facet of our mental health. And this week, Patrick, we are looking at interpersonal equanimity. Now that sounds like it's a very complicated term, but I don't doubt there are going to be some people out there that would have a sense of what it means, even if they don't attach it to that word. So can you just explain to our listeners what is equanimity? 

Patrick:

Yeah, sure. So we probably could drop the interpersonal. That's just the people's bit. And equanimity we could also just make as like evenness or evenness of relating towards people is kind of really what that means. But what is I guess the real kicker about this one, which is in terms of mindfulness, often focuses on how I can improve myself, become calm, become more still, become more centered, be able to observe my thoughts, neutrally, non judgmentally, which helps our own experience, our well being. And this equanimity is where we turn all of that skillfulness onto others. So it's that capacity to observe with that sort of same neutral, nonjudgmental awareness, which we can then probably even just call when we're talking about other people. 

We could almost call it compassion or they sometimes use the word or the description of lovingkindness. And it's that capacity to observe really three groups of people that we sort of naturally like, maybe those that there's some dislike for some reason or those for whom the third group is where we don't have an opinion. Either way, it's kind of indifferent. But the goal here with this Equanimity is to offer each of those three groups, which we could also sometimes call friend, stranger, and enemy to observe and relate to each of those three groups with the same objectivity. The same openness, the same kindness, almost the same unconditionality that we might have for people in the friend group is to be able to offer that to all three groups. 

So equanimity is a very powerful way of applying mindfulness to other people so that they benefit not just us. 

Interviewer:

And some of what you've highlighted there was touched on when we discussed openness a couple of weeks ago. And we took from that the worth of being open to new experiences. It was like a childhood adage for many people you don't know until you've tried it kind of thing. Your parents would often tell you that when it came to doing new things you might initially be put off if you were going to a restaurant and you didn't want to try a particular food. So we talked about the worth of being open to new experiences. So why is it important to view others with that? Equanimity? 

Patrick:

Yeah, well, the main reason, I think, is because we all are essentially driven by the same things underneath. Someone once said that ultimately the reason why we're doing everything is to be happy and each experience that we have and so on. And so really what Equanimity does in terms of how we're viewing others this way is to see that you could almost say that sameness that we have, which is that perhaps if you want to use those two drivers all creatures are driven by the avoidance of pain and the pursuit of a pleasure or a good. And so what we're seeing is that, wow, this person ultimately is the same as me in that regard. Really. How we act when we act with Equanimity is to perhaps treat them as we would like to be treated. 

And that lovely description comes from Jesus, which is like loving your neighbor as yourself. You could say that's an example of equanimity, but if we flip that on its head, we could also ask how happy would our neighbors be if we did love them the way we loved ourselves. Because sometimes we're a little bit cruel or mean or stingy or impatient with ourselves. So the nice thing about this is that we're all included, actually, and another way also, to put it, perhaps in the business world, you could almost say is win versus I'm here to sell a product and get the best price from you I can. And sometimes that can be like a win-lose. 

Research on companies shows that companies who've had ethical sort of mission statements like transparency and whatever have been seven times more successful than companies that haven't. I think it's partly that sense of trust. It's like, yeah, this person's also interested in my well-being, not just their bottom line. So kind of long answered, in a sense, that there are multiple elements to this equanimity.

But probably the bit I'd just like to end with on this is that on a relative level, there are two levels to equanimity. One is the relative level, which is wishing kind of good things for people, they're healthy and so on. But then there's also that absolute level, which is that they are happy, that they experience the causes of happiness, to have inner well-being independent of circumstances. 

So you can go as deep as you want with this thing. It's to be kind and be nice, but it's also to genuinely wish that person to be happy. 

Interviewer:

Patrick, we're looking at interpersonal equanimity, the tendency or the capacity to view others with openness. We've been talking about why it is important to do so, but can you just highlight why might viewing other people with equanimity be something we find difficult? 

Patrick:

Well, we tend to have a natural bias towards, say, our friends and a kind of almost a negative bias perhaps towards people that might fit in the enemy's camp or people we don't like and then pretty much a disinterested bias towards strangers. These three groups. Why it can be difficult is that it's about counteracting that natural tendency to just sort of look after me and mine, which is a very small way of viewing our like, in a sense, if we just love our family, I mean, that's great. But it's known, Freud described having children can be the ultimate form of narcissism, where the me simply just expands to we and I just kind of look after we now. It doesn't have to be that way. Freud was great at finding the pathology. 

So what we want to look at is to be able to just see that these groups, whether they're in the friend, stranger, or enemy camp, just be able to see that they have that desire to be happy and to not be in pain or to not suffer. I think we get that understanding of people's motivation underneath their actions and sometimes not always so easy when we're suffering as a result of them. But if we can try and see that at least underneath that they are trying to be happy, perhaps they're not being very skillful about it, and perhaps they're doing it at our expense. But their ultimate reason, even if it's misguided, is that they're doing this to be happy or to not suffer. 

Once we've kind of got that bridge, that sameness between us and them, then it's so much easier to be able to go well okay, I get it. Perhaps it wasn't done so well because I also want fewer things. But maybe we can explore what we can do about this because we're both trying to get the same thing in the end. 

Interviewer:

Well, on the subject of what we can do about this, the reason you are addressing interpersonal Equanimity is that you have a meditative technique that will help us achieve it. With that in mind, what is your technique for helping equanimity become part of our outlook? 

Patrick:

Yeah, so there is a great and simple method. There are multiple ways to do this but one is to use these three categories friend, stranger, and enemy or someone that we struggle with, if you want to use another term. And they can be a means to develop this equanimity or this empathy or this compassion. So in a way, the first thing is to be able to have that bridge between us and them. To be able to build that by seeing that we're the same in regards to wanting to have pleasure or a good and not wanting to have pain or a bad thing happen. So there can be one nice way. 

Is there a four-step process and you say let's just choose someone and sometimes you can start with a friend to make it easier or you can start at the other end, with someone that you have had difficulty with? And the four steps are almost like four sentences that you can say or you can work within your head. The first one is, that this person is just like me in one way. They don't want us to suffer. So let's just say we choose someone that we're finding a little bit difficult. So the first step is to get that sameness the bridge between both of us, that we're both humans wanting these two things to be happy, not suffer. So step one, this person is just like me in that they don't want to suffer. 

Step two, just as I don't want to suffer, may this person not suffer. And step three, this person is just like me in another way, they want to be happy. And then step four is the sentence just as I want to be happy, may this person be happy. Now, what's lovely about this is that it's just on the level of intentions, it hasn't even moved into behavior or actions, but we're sort of transforming our internal relationship towards that person, even if we haven't even acted yet. And what we're saying is that even though I've had difficulties with this person, my intention for them is that they do not suffer and that they are happy. Perhaps you want to put it in brackets, jeez, I'd rather not suffer as a result of them trying to be happy. 

But in the end, the goal you want is for them to not suffer and for them to be happy. And the win is that you want that for yourself too. And so that's the four-step process for the equanimity exercise. And you can do that with anybody, just sort of rinse and repeat. And it's a very powerful way of transforming any view that we have of someone that we've had difficulty with. So, a quick recap. Step one, this person's just like me. They don't want to suffer. Step two, just as I don't want to suffer, may this person not suffer. Step three, this person is just like me, they want to be happy. Step four is just as I want to be happy, may this person be happy. 

Interviewer:

When we look at interpersonal equanimity, Patrick, we're talking about how we view other people. But is there a worth or can equanimity be useful in how we view ourselves as well? 

Patrick:

Yeah, well, I think when we transform any way of thinking, when we transform our mind, automatically the first person that benefits is ourselves. So they say a little bit like with anger, it's kind of like a poison that we're wanting to throw out at someone else. But the first person that experiences that poison, that discomfort, is ourselves. So, in reverse, when we build this kindness and this compassion, this lovingkindness or equanimity different ways of describing it, we're making our mind, in a sense, more tender more gentle, more kind. So we're experiencing, therefore, our mind as a kinder place.

And I remember sometimes I remember just describing, say, with my daughter, she might experience someone that was like a bit of a struggle once, just now and again. 

And my response generally to that was almost like a compassion response, which is if they're a really difficult person, it's just like well, you got to experience them for a minute, but they get to experience themselves for 24/7 if they're like that. And so, as I said in reverse if we kind of marinate our mind in compassion and kindness and gentleness, then we have a much softer, more tender mind, which then means it's a happier place to inhabit because that's in a sense, that's our processor, that's what we've got. I guess the last bit on that is that I think it's so critical to be at least on our side, on our side. And sometimes we might experience that no one gets it. No one understands why we did that or where were coming from. 

And if we also sell out our view, then there's no compassion left anywhere. My kind of advice for this is at least we need to be on our side. And I think this equanimity is a kind way of saying, well, I have this genuine understanding and interpretation of where people were trying to come from and I have that view towards myself as well. I get where I was trying to come from. And even if it didn't go so well, there's a gentleness and I think that's critical in this work in living a happy life.

Interviewer:

And it seems there where you talk about trying to assess or like there's a self-reflection component to that. As we've said with each of the past discussions, all of these techniques seem to sort of bleed into one another because it feels like you somewhat rely on being good at another technique to ensure that your sense of Equanimity is functional. I suppose so could you maybe highlight some of the ways that other techniques play into this? 

Patrick:

The one that immediately comes to mind probably would be clarity and that is that ability to not be a mystery to myself. That sort of classic quest, what are you feeling? I don't know. We can't get to it. And so for kids, where that's the experience, we have the 100 different facial expressions and something, I think if we have certain awareness about what's happening in us, which might be a reaction and it might be a bias towards someone because of either how they look or that they remind us of someone or they generally have done things to us in the past. I think once we sort of slow down our process to see oh, yeah. So I'm still carrying that in regards to this person. 

Again, going back to the notion of anger it's that the first poison, that the first person to experience that poison is ourselves. I think it's the same thing. If we notice the bias that we've got towards someone, we realize that we're the ones dragging that along. And so, in a sense, if we can let that go, we're much lighter as well. So I think clarity is one of them, of course, but being present moment awareness, being able to be in the moment, not stuck in a past moment about that person, would fit again. Response freshness. Can I have a different response to this person versus my same old response? Am I going to react and relate to them like that forever? And you're highlighting the relationship between these different mindfulness attributes. 

Whilst they can be practiced individually, I think what they and some exercises come with each of them a little bit like gym exercises to build different muscle groups, the overall fitness that they build by building the different ones, that we're a stronger human being, a more robust, more resilient human being, a happier one. And I think that's critical. I think the other aspect is that each of these we just looked at ten big ones, mindfulness areas, that they are the attributes of a happy person, of a humane, aware, present, clear, kind human being.

And so I think whilst they are skill sets and predictors that were found in mindfulness to be the important ones, they also aren't simply descriptors of what it is to be a happy person.

So building them up just so that there's a solid impact in our life, I think just makes us happier and hopefully to stuff, I guess, bring it all together. The goal of that, ultimately, which we've touched on with this equanimity, is to have that sort of experience of their inner well-being, independent of circumstances, which then expresses itself lovingly out in the world. So I think these represent that journey. 

Interviewer:

Excellent well, Patrick, we hope to speak to you again here soon on the Morning Show. In the meantime, thanks for getting in touch with us today. Look forward to seeing what you bring in for us next time. 

Patrick:

All right, sounds good. 

Interviewer:

Excellent. Take care.