Dr. Patrick Jones discusses the concept of heroism and how heroic imagination influences our definition of heroism. Heroic imagination involves voluntary actions that are self-sacrificing and serve others, with a focus on self-transcendence. The idea is to develop a mindset of thinking like a hero and taking steps towards becoming one. Mindfulness practices are relevant to cultivating this heroic way of thinking as they promote an egoless perspective and control over fear responses.
Our sense of self can inhibit our daily functioning, but mindfulness helps us move beyond self-referencing and rumination. Selfless observation in mindfulness is different from passive observation; it involves being alert to the world around us while actively participating in the present moment rather than avoiding engagement or challenges.
TRANSCRIPT
Interviewer:
You're listening to the morning show here on Youth Jam. And as it's a Thursday, I am right now joined by Dr. Patrick Jones. Patrick comes on air each week to discuss both our mental health and our ongoing well-being. And Patrick, today we are finishing a conversation we started a few weeks back on the subject of heroism. Folks can check out what we've talked about on this subject already by way of Dr. Patrickjones.com. But one thing I wanted to ask you, where we've previously talked a fair bit about how we define heroism and what ongoing traits are conducive to making a hero. What is heroic imagination and how does that influence how we define heroism?
Patrick:
Yeah, okay. Well, heroic imagination came as a concept from a couple of fellows, Franco and Zimbardo. They were responsible for initiating the whole, I guess, interest in the science of heroism. Before that, it was what makes up human potential and so on, but there wasn't got a lot of data on it. And there are particular ways in which people act that are quite extraordinary.
And so they came up with what they considered to be, like, core heroic elements, that it was voluntary. It's not like you had to do it. It tended to be self-sacrificing in some way, and it was of service to others. It was a type of self-transcendence. And of course, trying to get a handle on just how people do that when they do it, and could they do it predictably?
Could we train ourselves in that? It became a subsequent question that they had. Usually the way often research is they're interested in identifying what something is first, rather than trying to create it or augment it. So subsequently, interventions and ideas about now that we know a little bit more about it, not just endlessly talking about it, what can we do about it? How can we increase it? So they came up with their notion of what they call heroic imagination, which was just ways to try and develop that way of thinking if you like, the personal sort of heroic ideal.
And if I thought like that, acted like that, what would I become? What would be the difference or the gap between where I am now and what that sort of hero, even a superhero, would be like? What are the steps?
So that's really where it came, and it was quite influential, you could say, that whole inquiry. And I think when I look at something, let's say, like the mindfulness practices, they are so relevant. They're so tailored to some of those same ideas. What's been interesting, especially in terms of the upper limits of human potential and what does a human being look like? Can we train ourselves in that? Which is the advanced form of mindfulness being the dissolution of the self or the complete egoless way of living, which is so a keen to what you would see in a hero, that notion that they're not so ruminating and self-preoccupied, but it's just what is needed and what can I do?
So that's the way you could almost argue that the hero might think.
And then the question is, certainly with mindfulness, what can it do about building that heroic imagination or heroic way of thinking is probably a better way of putting it. This is also where the advantage of the interest in mindfulness is that it's been taken up by neuroscience and a whole range of assessment processes.
And when you look at things like, I don't know, just say single-pointed concentration, which is one of the big areas in mindfulness, if you look at that capacity to be single-pointed and be able to put your mind where it needs to go versus wherever it wants to go. You can see the relevance of that in the heroically, demanding situation that your mind is in now. You've got mastery over it.
It's a tool that you can direct it towards whatever is necessary or any of the other things of the ego lessness. One of the neuroscience things they found is that there's less when people are coming from a non-self-preoccupied way of being. They simply have hooked them up to machines and so on they have less fear responses or less what they call startle responses to aversive stimuli. When they shock them with all kinds of, they pass it through ethics. We can show these people these horrendous pictures or images or shock them with sounds or something.
And they've found that the more advanced practitioners, mindfulness practitioners, simply just have they're not making it up. They're just their body does not respond with that same level of fear or startle, which then what that does is open up the mind's capacity to be available to what you're attending, to the stimulus that's relevant versus managing your own endlessly worried response to the tiger in front of you or whatever? It's like, well, who needs to go where what needs to be done? Which is very much what we would imagine the hero might be. So, they're in control of that situation, doing what's needed at the time.
Interviewer:
Well, you mentioned it there, both at the tail end of your answer, but also highlighted earlier on as the dissolution of the self and like an egoless perspective. But with that in mind, could you also just highlight a little further why it is that our sense of self, like how and why our sense of self can be an inhibition to how we function day to day?
Patrick:
Yeah, well, again, if we just stay with neuroscience a little bit, one of the terms that they looked at was almost this notion of “selfing” that it's not automatically required to have to keep referencing the sense of self or me and it does have when we are freer to not always be self-preoccupied. You could say there's more space within our experience or awareness. Again, they have found that there are impacts when they look at the data in terms of what people can do. So how does that self, as you say, inhibit how we function? Well, probably good to at least see how that self is even constructed. They have done some work on this and they found that there is a sort of neural activity that is almost like a recurrent feedback process of reminding me that I exist.
It takes information from physical stimuli and cognition and memory. They found that different parts of the brain are responsible for collecting all these bits of information and creating this apparent cohesive sense of me. And then from that I can then protect myself or act or whatever else. I've also found that when someone has said a grand mild seizure or something or a blissful experience in a meditation, these sorts of "selfing" mechanisms just explode, they just don't work.
And for the moment there's no sense of that almost by comparison. And this is where there's a lot more investigation research required which would be wonderful. But it sorts of shows that we don't always need to be self-referencing.
There can be a place beyond that we can still act and we might want to call that awareness Buddhist psychology. They might call that the no self or empty of inherent existence, just the non-abiding self, lots of different terms. And it's in complete contrast to the about my self-referencing that we have when we're going to a party or going to something, which is of concern for us, a tutorial at Uni or something. And this is the complete opposite where that's just not even firing, that continual self-referencing, that phrase like someone's having a conversation. So enough about me, how about you? What do you think about me?
We can't help but go back into that self-referencing, but it has been linked with increased what they call DMN activity or the default mode network, which is the part of our brain that ruminates, that sort of tries to perhaps even daydream, and think about all kinds of stuff which is meant to be somewhere good for us, we think, because I've got to do that and what's going to happen here?
But what's more, it has an addictive component and when we're so self-oriented this part of the brain is continually firing and it's been negatively correlated with well-being when we're always in that ruminating worrying state. And of course, the other bit just to finish this is that when we are so self-referenced, they've found that it decreases the efficiency of the attentional system.
So, in other words, we can't attend to all the other stuff because we're in our world about me and there's a million other versions of how that plays out. But having such self-preoccupation, which of course be kind, if we're nervous and worried, is just how we default. It's not like we're being immoral or bad or we can't help it. And mastery, I guess, is when we allow that to fall away and realize that we don't need that sense of protection because where we come from is in a sense beyond that.
And then when we're from that place, our functioning escalates again and then we begin to approximate some of that heroic stuff because the self is not impeding our functioning. So, amazing stuff really, and some very cool research too.
Interviewer:
Now, Patrick, we've been looking at heroism and mindfulness for the last few weeks and we're looking at how having an overactive sense of self, and I suppose it's almost like an egotistical mode of operating can be an inhibition to how we function. Thus, one of the goals of mindfulness and also allowing it to then be conducive to heroism is to attain a mode of selfless observation. But I think that people in hear the term selfless observation might also equate that to passive observation which also has all kinds of detrimental connotations associated with that. So could you just outline the distinction between selfless observation and passive observation?
Patrick:
Yeah, well, in every craft there are traps for young players. And mindfulness has its version and it should draw some level of critique because selfless observation is different from just being passive. So, let's just at least highlight what that trap might be. The concern is that if people start some kind of mindfulness or meditation how to do it in a way where they remain alert to their world versus become passive observers of their world. And some of the criticisms have been that it's kind of been wrongly attributed as a sort of practice.
It's more a mistake when people are practicing that people can develop a type of selective inattention to the psychological phenomena that are happening in them because they're just sort of watching it, letting it go, and so on when sometimes they should damn well examine it. They're feeling worried or concerned or something for something probably worth investigating a little further so that you're more prepared for whatever that is. That would in a sense call be called the passive observation. It's a type of tendency that we might have to avoid engaging in life or its challenges which might demand some response.
And some of the contraindicators they could say, of meditation or mindfulness with well-being or things where it doesn't look like it's worked for the person is when they're experiencing less motivation in life, greater boredom.
What they call impaired reality testing is where they're just not seeing things, probably quite accurately or realistically, and a bit disorientated and feeling a bit dissociated from their life. Now, at one level, again, multiple in a sense, not so many traps, but things to have to encounter and understand is that when you do develop a certain level of skillfulness to be able to watch thoughts and feelings and sensations, it's almost to be able to distinguish.
When they talk about clinical interventions what they call differential diagnosis, is it this or is it that? Here again or in philosophy they say never argue, always distinguish. We need to be kind of clear. Is this thing that I'm observing here something that's just a needless worry or is it something that I might need to pay attention to and take some action on?
So, if we're looking at something that we might need to take some action on and we're being a bit too passive about it, we've probably gone a bit too far in the neutral, nonjudgmental awareness. So that's probably where we want to distinguish them. So then if we look at what would be the right way to do it's when you can mindfully be in the moment. And I always like to say watch and allow, which is watch the thoughts, neutrally, non-judgmentally, and see that you have constructed them in response to a certain situation. Allow and then allow the feelings and sensations to occur.
So just to fully own, if you like or be a cannibal, that's my response to this situation. And then to discriminate or discern, do I need to take any action?
Is this processor called Brain taking in data that needs to do it because that's its role? To discriminate, diagnose, differentiate, that's its point. It's just to not be identified with my emotional and physical reactions to whatever it's saying. I can observe it, but then I can be, in a sense, selfless. When you talked about what selfless observation I can look at, well, do I need to respond effectively to this situation in a certain way? I think that's probably the difference.
More recently, there have been what they call almost like a second generation of mindfulness interventions in recent years that have tried to counter this concern about passive observation. And they try and describe it almost as an active and discriminative form of awareness that advocates people to be actively participating in the here and now.
What all that would mean essentially is that you're in the moment, you're watching and you're neutral in terms of your judgments, but you're still able to be switched on and take action when required. But from an egoless place, if you like, from a non self referencing worry place, from that place, you can still take action. And then as soon as we're talking about that, we're back in her country, back in that capacity to be able to observe everything that's going on, not be so self-concerned and what's going to happen to me and what needs to be done in this situation. So aware, judging, and capable of acting. That's the combo.
Interviewer:
Now, Patrick, as I mentioned at the beginning of the chat, this is our final discussion on heroism. Now, we came to it by way of a series of discussions that preceded it on mindfulness. Again, folks can check that out by way of Drpatrickjones.com, but in terms of there being a link between mindfulness and heroism as a trait, should mindfulness and heroism therefore always go hand in hand?
Patrick:
Well, I reckon, to be honest, I'm a bit over the low-level discussions on either mindfulness or mental health, whatever, that just keep us playing a small game. And it's in what I perhaps would call the introductory level. It might occasionally shift to intermediate, but it's not advanced. It's not interested in mastery and human potential. I think the upper end of a fully accomplished mindfulness practitioner, they are masterful and heroic in their life. One of the qualities of heroes is that sometimes they're unconventional. Like if we talk about Martin Luther King or Gandhi or Socrates, I mean, wow, we look at all those, all three of them, they were all killed. So not necessarily the status quo.
Wielders and yet what we're looking at here be there are so many ways that you can be heroic and live a very normal and even mild-looking life in the people in Nazi Germany that were just very quietly just adding an extra stamp to a pass that enabled another person to another Jew to get through and not be corralled into a ghetto and then taken elsewhere. They found they've researched all the different ways in which we have been heroic in time and people like that, where they were quietly stamping things, nothing problematic to the world in terms of massive action, and yet save 2000, 3000 lives. I mean, it's beautiful how we can make a difference without it being this massive thing.
But anyway, I am deflecting into all kinds of ways that the research and science of heroism have just found, the beautiful ways in which we can act in the world. And I think that's the standard that I believe we should all hold ourselves to. So, with mindfulness specifically, it's not just the introductory level, but I do feel we'll need to get that which is peace of mind or relaxation or lack of tension, as they say in the plane, you put the oxygen on yourself first so that you can then help other people. I get at an introductory level, it's necessary and we must get to that place ourselves. But then to have a view of beyond or more.
And I think if we're looking at how that could be done, even like, you think about, say, the first responders, whatever those particular ways are, if it's, you know, paramedics or whatever, imagine mindfulness training that looks at trying to assist them to be able to come from this place. The psychological load or impact and the trauma in some of these industries are staggering. So, there are ways in which this can play out in many, in a sense career that would make it different. So that's in a sense how training and mindfulness would assist people who are often doing heroic things in daily life.
But then I think also on the other sense we could also look at even perhaps just some scales, mindfulness scales that might be able to look at not just the lower end of do you have fewer distracting thoughts, but just some of that more advanced stuff. Can your mind be still and take action as required? I think we can expand our mindfulness scales as well. I have written a Quality Life Wellbeing scale that includes some of the mindfulness bits.
It's a psychometric instrument. I know with scale construction that you can test multiple factors if you like, in one scale. We don't have to limit ourselves to just introductory levels in mindfulness. We can have a spread of introductory, intermediate, and advanced levels or factors, a factor analysis, and be able to find out how you can do that, create items, et cetera.
There are ways in which we can create better mindfulness scales that test the advanced levels anyway, go on, leave that area probably just to finish, I guess it would be. The main thing, I think, in all of this is the advanced level of the mindfulness work is where you take someone from what we call a state experience of ego lessness to a trait experience where you don't just have an amazing experience of things might fall away and you're feeling clear and happy and it's wonderful sunset or a nice meditation or something, but that will get us through the day and then we will remember it and try and get back to it and try and find ways to do it.
But if we can move to a trait experience which is more now in the heroism realm where this just becomes a consistent base from which being happy is natural, that inner peace or well-being is now just who I am, where I come from. And if the training like that was possible and we'd moved from event-based well-being to inner well-being as our default, well, we have potentially a whole swag of heroes.
We have another level of operating as individuals or as humans or society where we are eager less serving each other within the creativity of our self-expression. I mean, nothing more I can say that's our potential and I think mindfulness and heroism are a perfect fit for creating that.
Interviewer:
And you've mentioned it a couple of times in some of our other discussions, the fact that this is quite cutting-edge stuff. So, for that, we thank you for getting in touch with us over the last few weeks, Patrick. And of course, for this week here on Youth Jam.
Patrick:
Yep. My pleasure.
Interviewer:
Excellent.