EP 3 Heroism

TRANSCRIPT

Interviewer:

You're listening to the drive show here on Youth Jam with today's drive show host Lachlan Bose. And right now, as it's a Thursday, I am joined by Dr. Patrick Jones. Patrick comes on air each Thursday to discuss a different facet of our mental health. And over the last few weeks, Patrick, we've been looking at heroism, how we define it, and how our principles and ethics can go some way to forming heroism as an ongoing trait. But the scope of this conversation in particular is how mindfulness can contribute to heroism. So this discussion that we're going to have today is almost going touch a little bit on what we've talked about previously in The Way of Mindfulness. But something I wanted to ask you that I haven't done previously is how has mindfulness changed in form over the years? 

Patrick:

Yeah, well, actually, mindfulness does have quite a tradition to it. And even though it's hit the west really in the last probably 40 years, primarily through John Kabatzin's amazing mindfulness based sort of stress reduction work, his programs, and it then has gone into looking at clinically effective programs or interventions. And it's really targeted anxiety and depression, but then it's also targeted all kinds of actual physical illnesses that somehow by getting the mental state right, that they seem to have had this flow on effect on those. So we really mainly know it in the last number of decades for its clinical application and then also when I'll say clinical in terms of managing stress and so on. But origins are really the original Contemplative traditions in a Buddhist psychology and so on, and they actually have a much almost deeper context or goal. 

And that is really to not just to be able to create a present moment awareness and so on, and be a relaxed, non stressed response, which of course is great, but they go a lot further. And their essential goal is to use the mindfulness processes to see through what they would call the illusory sense of the self that we have. That is the thing that gets upset if such and such offends me in a certain way or my view about this. And there's a kind of a me that's so attached to that view, and if someone disagrees with it or insults that in any way, then potentially I suffer. 

And so the traditional use of mindfulness in all the Contemplative traditions and Buddhist psychology is to target that very sense of self that is the cause of that suffering and basically just to blow it out of the water. And they have lovely terms, basically almost spiritual awakening just to awaken to who you are beyond this ridiculously small, trivial sense of self that gets offended. It's like, almost like, grow up, there's more, you're bigger than this. But they're very curated or detailed methods to help you deconstruct. That what they would call that false sense of self. To then be able to be in a place beyond it, which is really relevant to the heroism stuff. 

Because when you're beyond the little mini me, then the little small sense of self, what you're capable of is extreme, is so beyond concern for this sense of self because it's just not operating. And your capacity to be heroic is next level, essentially. 

Interviewer:

Yeah, and you're touching largely on the scope of traditional mindfulness and where the idea of traditional mindfulness and contemporary mindfulness, the overarching idea of progression, might say that it might lead people to assume, okay, we look directly at what is the most recent findings on this area and pay a little consideration to what's come before. But and you've touched on it briefly there, but can you just elaborate specifically on how traditional mindfulness might actually be quite useful and there'd be a wealth of knowledge in terms of what it has to teach us in relation to both our mental health and heroism? 

Patrick:

Yeah, well, at that introductory level, I'll just call it modern mindfulness, if you like, or even neo mindfulness that does have what I would probably call an introductory value in terms of heroic behavior. So let's probably put that initially at mental health. And I often like to just rephrase mental health as well being as well because mental health sometimes has now a little bit of managing our mental health quality as opposed to being really mentally healthy, like a really resilient and someone that's got high, great well being, you could say. 

So that's its introductory level mindfulness is to target that sense of self and to make it in a sense more positive, like cognitive restructuring in CBT or cognitive behavioral therapy does something a little similar in that it tries to replace negative thinking with positive thinking by asking what's the evidence for that negative thought and so on. Mindfulness, though, takes it a step further than that in the well being in the clinical space. And it also just says, well look, see if you can just step back from those thoughts and see them as what they are. They're thoughts that are coming and going. In fact, they were randomly and possibly unintentionally constructed by you. So we don't always need to just change them from negative positive because both of those are not real, like you made both of them up. 

So mindfulness is a little bit easier in some ways once you kind of get it to be able to be used for the mental health. But the traditional mindfulness, I think it can take us to that next level because it is targeting what we call the dissolution or the dissolving of the ego of that, which is from the Greek word ego I or me, the sense of me that we basically use as a foundation to do everything. And probably in a nutshell, where the traditional mindfulness comes from is it says that this sense of self really is in error because its goal is to do really two things. It's to avoid pain as best as it can and to optimize pleasure or good stuff. 

And if it's really successful at doing those two, minimizing the pain and maximizing the pleasure or good, then it says great, I will be happy. But the kicker with that is that it means that if I'm no good at that or things happen, then I won't be able to be happy. In other words, it's a very contingent or dependent model, makes us in a sense vulnerable to how good we are at being able to do that damn thing and how successful we are in the world. The traditional mindfulness that comes from the Buddhist psychology but also in really every major contemplative tradition, whether it is Christian or Hindu or Buddhist or anything, the contemplative traditions where they are the same is that in the deeper experience, beyond thought, feeling and sensation, the person just meets their true nature. 

So it isn't matter how you might define it, the person is still the same person. And so the great thing about modern mindfulness is that it's remained really just completely mainstream. It hasn't needed to go down in a sense religious pathways or labels. It's simply just said look, use these processes and you will get these kinds of results. And probably just to finish that. What's actually really nice though is that in the traditional mindfulness, certainly within the Tibetan tradition, the term for a really actualized mindfulness practitioner, one of the terms they use is a bodhisattva, which literally means hero of the enlightened mind. So you just have to have that level of courage to be able to face yourself. 

But if you can, and you can go beyond that, then what you're delivering, in a sense what this mindfulness work is delivering literally is a heroic human being. So I would say super relevant for our research on optimal human functioning and what it is to create a hero. And the world needs people that can take on these kinds of challenges and be heroic. So any methodology that's going to make us reach our potential, like anyone that's serious in being more would want to go, well jeez, what can this offer me? 

Interviewer:

What are the processes that mindfulness breaks down into and what is the role of each of those processes? 

Patrick:

Yeah, okay, so again, if we just say temporarily with modern mindfulness, it is a whole range of different techniques and apps, you could say. And people can really just jump in at any point and use one of them to help them. So that's the typical way. And so, say, if someone's presented with anxiety or they've got some stress, they can either go to a psychologist and they might teach them some mindfulness skills, some observation of the breathing, relaxed or progressive muscle relaxation or a body scan from head toe or all kinds of different apps being the present moment, bringing your attention to the visuals, the auditory, the kind of aesthetics of this moment. 

There's lots of different, in a sense techniques that you can just use or processes and they have that sort of desired effect of being able to reduce your current state from stress to less stress. Now with the traditional mindfulness process that come freely from the contemplative traditions. Their process is not just to reduce your state, which is obviously compassionate and the right thing to do, but it's to actually change your trait, to change, actually your ongoing way of operating in the world so that you're just more robust. It's a more dependable experience. And the difference here and this is one of the contributions I'm really keen to continue making in the field of mindfulness psychology heroism is that we don't just want improvements in well being and developing resilience and strategies to deal with getting a more positive state. 

I'm interested in trait in the ongoing uninterrupted experience of well being that's this untouchable which I would see as unnatural. And so the traditional mindfulness traditions, their process is designed just for that. So it's not a state change, jump into something and then get back out and be more resourced. They're saying we want to overhaul the system so that from the beginning all the way through from beginning to end, you've now got a reliable way of living in the world that's untouchable and beautiful and able to really make this difference. So I just wanted to highlight that there's difference in those processes. And in a nutshell, the process of the traditional one is really just three steps. 

It's study which is just really fully understanding, you can almost call it theory, understanding just how the thought process works, the ability to be able to see that when I attach to something that I must have, whilst that's great and I'm having a great time with it somewhere there's a hidden fear that it won't last. And somewhere that they would say that even and I did react to this when I first heard it was like even the smelling of a rose can be suffering and I was like I was very much initially into quality of life experience and I highly disputed this publicly with the teachers at the time. 

But it was the notion that somewhere if it's very subtle, if I'm holding on to that really nice experience somewhere there's this very subtle inherent discomfort that it won't last or that I must have it or someone else will take it or whatever it is. So first step in the study is just really to get to see how the mind does that in both attachment to good stuff and aversion to bad stuff and looks at how we do that and to have insight, we need to see how our mind does this across the board. So that's the first thing. But then the second obviously this is books worth each one of these topics, but the second one is the actual then application we never wanted to stay theory. It's like what's the application to me? 

So the second one is where practitioner actually applies this theory to looking at my past and how has this played out and how do It in this present and how can I plan for more skillful ways of operating in the future? So it's taking that theory and dropping it into my past, present and future life and saying, well, how do I transform that? So it's a cleaner way of operating. That's the second. And then the final stage really are the techniques, which is really what most people know about, which might be they split them into two types concentration techniques like observing the breath, trying to keep bringing your attention back to observing your breathing, say counting from one to ten. Thoughts come up, you bring it back. Another thought comes up, you bring it back. It's what they call focused attention techniques. 

Single point of concentration, if you like. The idea is to remove distraction, so there's that and there's a whole lot of different techniques there. And then the second ones are the open monitoring ones, which are the complete reverse. It's just like more allowing thought, feeling sensation coming and going and not trying to come to that single point, but more just having a more of an inclusive way of operating and allowing that, but seeing them as in a sense impermanent that they come, they go almost like what's that to do with me? Why do I need to follow every one of them and react to them? I created it and then I react to it's like a very bizarre system once you get to see it. So they're, the three really study contemplation and practices and that's the process. 

But the whole point of all that process to tie that up is that once you've done that thoroughly and completely and haven't just jumped in to do the state change, which of course I always highlight is a really great thing to do, at least that versus nothing. But this whole process is about if you do this really it's about mastery and about developing us to the point to where I'm now able to beyond all of the thought feeding sensation and to come from that egoless place, which is the resting residual place that well being exists in. And that's what we want is people to be able to be in that untouchable way of being. 

Interviewer:

Yeah, you mentioned there that egoless place and that's something that's come up a number of times in our previous chat. So I wanted to highlight that in particular. If we're looking at that as an end goal or an end trait that we'd like to go on and exhibit. Firstly, what is egoless awareness and what is its use? Why is it useful? 

Patrick:

Yeah, well, it's a really great question and it's great in the sense that it's not typical for us to even have this question about what could be an Eagle Estate because a normal sense of me is all we have to work with. And even the question that there could be anything other than my normal sense of self doesn't necessarily even come up. But when it gets deconstructed or looked at through proper, in a sense, mindfulness process, we get to see that it is a particular almost mechanism. And it has, as I've highlighted before, really those two goals to avoid pain and pursue pleasure or the good, which I often likened to the survival versus evolution drivers. Survival is to avoid pain and evolution drive, in a sense, is to pursue pleasure just to kind of get bigger and better. 

But that's our normal sense of self. But the mindfulness work really targets that directly and aims to what we could deconstruct the sense of self so that potentially we can have an experience beyond that and that's what's new. And sometimes, perhaps in Buddhist psychology, you might call that emptiness or no self if you like, but it doesn't mean there isn't sense of preference. I wouldn't mind a tea versus coffee or something, but there is no, in a sense, primarily there's no attachment or aversion to the absence of tea or the presence of coffee or whatever from trivial all the way to significant. So preference, personality and everything is still as rich as it was but there's no suffering, as you could say, when those things fall away, there could be, oh, that would be good. 

But where the well being is coming from is in a sense beyond the attainment of those things. And I think that's probably the point I'm trying to make here is that in dissolving that sense of self, what's also being dissolved is the whole dependency system that I can only feel good if I'm getting those things which makes us incredibly vulnerable to them having to be there. So that's in a sense why it's useful because it doesn't leave us in that sort of that vulnerable place. But I think the last thing probably to say about this is not what we get to be vulnerable, cease to be vulnerable with, which is these things changing all the time or us losing them. 

But more, what it opens us to, which is very perhaps odd for people to get initially, is what it's like to be connected to the nature of who we are underneath everything, underneath all that continual, what they would call grasping and looking outward, what is it like to actually connect or contact with the nature that we are? And we're so used to getting stimulus externally as being well, that was a great night and so we had a good time and so yeah, were happy. And that's the whole model is that it is a completely externally driven paradigm the whole time and therefore if the thing is no good, then we don't have a great time. This turns all of that on its head and says, well, what about you? Can the pleasure come from being you, independent of what the night was like? 

Can you experience that pleasure just the core of you? And so that's why they often call it the awakening to the true nature, because it's a whole different experience of some lovely book that described this which was happy for no reason. And that's really what this work aims to do, is shift our dependency upon external stimulus to saying, well, what if I'm carrying it all the time? What if this actually is how I can feel independent of what I'm getting from outside? And so the mindfulness processes and the egoist awareness give us access to the pleasure of being me, of being just the nature of who I am. So, yeah, that's the shift, that's why it's useful. 

Interviewer:

Well, that's a very nice and appealing way of, I suppose, framing this whole process and it's also a lovely way to end today's chat. So thanks, Patrick, for getting in touch with us this week. Hope to speak to you again soon. 

Patrick:

Yeah, that sounds great. I think what it's doing with all these kinds of conversations is we are relooking at our well being paradigm and I think that's a very important conversation.