EP 2 Heroism

TRANSCRIPT

Interviewer:

You're listening to the morning show here on Youth Germ with your morning show host Lachlan Bose. And right now, as it's a Thursday, on the other End of the line, I have Dr. Patrick Jones. Patrick comes on air each week to discuss a different facet of our mental health. And Patrick, last week we kicked off a discussion on the subject of heroism. We were looking at heroism and how it connects to mindfulness, what it means to be heroic, how it's beneficial to both our physical and mental well-being, but also how principles and values can influence acts of heroism. So in continuing that discussion, I wanted to kick off with why what is classified as heroic change depending on the situation or viewpoint. 

Patrick:

Well, and just also, just to add to what you've just said, I mean, the relevance, I guess, to mindfulness. And we discussed, as you said, mental health and well-being. Heroism is the top end of an incredibly actualized or mindful amazing sort of human being. So that's the link. And there wasn't a lot. I noticed that there was a real gap in the research between all the mindfulness work and then there was a whole different discipline you call the science of heroism. And these two disciplines had never spoken to each other in the research. So I wrote an article specifically on the relevance of the mindful approach to human potential, to what it is to be heroic in the world. 

So since that's what we're doing here, and we are talking about some pretty cutting-edge stuff in our chat, to answer the question, one of the difficulties in sort of almost defining a hero is that they have so many different presentations and different levels of almost good or bad people that can do heroic stuff. So at the top end of the continuum, the researchers found that there can be basically people that you would think might be sort of fantastically virtuous people, but they're just not doing anything. And then at the other end, you've got people who like, I think I may have mentioned last time during Hurricane Katrina, a fellow, they had a history of felony arrests and so on, and he simply loaded a stolen bus with poor New Orleans residents and drove them out of that place. 

To that we're left with, well, how come we've got this bit of this discrepancy? And I think to answer it simply is that there's a range of ethics, you could almost say, and heroic profiles. And I guess we look at our own life and other people's, we see that there are gaps in our character, perhaps, that we see filled in someone else and that inspires us, say. And then similarly they might go, but you're amazing in that area. And so that sort of highlights that we do have gaps in our development. And when they look at development, which we'll perhaps discuss more in this. There are different experiences and so on that grow us in different ways. And we sort of miss certain things that perhaps could have grown more holistically. 

And we call them sort of in the psychology realm, they call them developmental arrests. We just kind of get stopped in that area, but we grow in other areas. And it looks like we've grown in the one that stopped because we look like an adult. But that's quite stunted. So there are gaps. That's the one thing, and I think that helps explain why people can perform well in some areas and just completely not in others. And the answer to what I think due to that is if there are these gaps, what could be the kind of training to fill in those gaps? Not just because I think in our discussions, I'm keen to raise the conversation beyond, just mental health, which I see as the first step in helping people not be distressed. 

I think we need to raise the conversation, once we've done that, to the next level of what's a really happy human being, what is well-being, not just what is mental health and how do we stay well? Often the mental health discussion is not so much how do we stay well, but how do we not get unwell and how do we get out of being unwell, which is, as I always say, it's a critical introductory step, but we miss this other end, which is human potential, the optimal functioning of a human. So heroism is where we're talking about that top end the Olympics are on at the moment. We're talking about what it's like to get gold as a human being in terms of how you perfect your craft. 

Interviewer:

And so I think where we're looking at in these conversations is could mindfulness and its whole process potentially, if done properly, deliver because it is all about mastery. Could it deliver the perfect hero without the gaps? 

Patrick:

Yeah. One of the things that I've come across in researching and reading up to put together these questions is part of what you're looking at is finding a way that we can develop it personally. One of the things that you've talked about and one of the things that came about in some of the literature that I've used to compile the questions is the idea of spirituality being used as a way of informing that process. So can you just talk about how the research into spirituality has informed not only how we can be a hero, but what is a hero as well? 

Yes, well, exactly. As I said earlier, up to this point, there have been quite independent research areas and so on. I think the reason why is because normal is what we call developmental theory in psychology. It sort of maps the understanding, like Piaget and so on, the linear step-by-step processes where people from infancy start to learn how to develop things like object permanence, which is like an object disappears from view and they just forget about it. And then there's a certain point to where the brain grows a bit more and they try the test again, and the object goes out of view, and then the baby is kind of waiting for when it comes back into view. Because it's developed cognitively, it's developed greater complexity. So now it's got object permanence. 

It can remember stuff and process stuff and so on. So developmental theory just looks at how we grow step by step. And again, if you look at educational psychology and so on, when they do assessments of us as kids and so on, which they do now, they're trying to look at what are those gaps, if you like. Perhaps we need to fill in this. This person's struggling, blah, blah. And they do that across all kinds of functionalities or areas, strengths and weaknesses audit in a way. So that's the standard approach. Looking at cognition, thinking, affected feelings, and just behaviors. So that's the normal one we used to. But strangely enough, and probably not for the people in the spirituality arenas. Theology, mystical theology, and even some of the areas looking at philosophy as well, philosophy of mine as well. 

They have also been doing their research in this area. But they've been investigating, you could almost say, the higher levels of development in terms of, you could almost say being versus just natural psychological development. And they have a lot to say in this arena an extraordinary amount. It's almost like psychology has mapped out perhaps primary school, and high school level of understanding in terms of psychological growth, and spirituality is really kind of now gone to the specialist end. Perhaps you could say a university education advanced level, which is what advanced human beings look like and what are their experiences. So that's where you get them tracking what you might call psychospiritual progress if you want to use that term. Some people react to the word spiritual. If we can find another word, fine. But it's almost the intangible. 

How does one be happy? Sort of the intangible realm is a little hard to talk about. But anyway, you can talk about things like peak states, if you like, human potential, optimal human functioning, and so on. It is if those words suit you better. But in those traditions, across all the different ways, the inquiries, they have had ways to describe that union with God. Mystical experience, as I said, a peak experience. Enlightenment, if you like or I like, the more the mainstream style. When I look at any of this, I would call it simply realizing the nature of a human being. Like, just who are you? What is the nature of your mind underneath thought, feeling, and sensation? 

Can you experience that which you are at rest these deeper inquirers look at what that's like to experience who we are at rest, which typically is incredibly beautiful if we want to be very dry. In psychology, we'd call it high levels of positive affect. In other words, we feel damn good being ourselves beyond all the stuff. So if we use a word, we'll keep it for the moment. The spiritual inquiry has looked at this upper end of human functioning and so, of course, is completely relevant to heroism, which is also investigating peak performance. So, yeah, that's the link. 

Interviewer:

We touched on this a little bit last week as well, the idea that heroism and heroic acts may be difficult to define because they're so disparate and they change depending on the situation. But in that way, sort of following on from that, what is the distinction between a single heroic act and heroism as an ongoing trait? 

Patrick:

Right, well, this is the difficulty or the challenge, opportunity of science, of heroism, inquiry, or research to try and solve this problem of why is it just a single heroic act and how does that gets generated? And then since the next question could be, well, how do we get to generate that again? And then potentially predictably or as you said, like an ongoing you know, again, in psychology, we talk know, a state versus a trade change. A state thing is a temporary change. For example, when Nelson Mandela got elected in South Africa many years ago, the whole nation experienced a spike in well-being, which lasted, I think, a couple of weeks when they were mapping it because somehow the ongoing subjective well-being studies just seem to be running. 

I don't know why, but across the world, there are lots of assessments going on about all kinds of stuff, so they just noticed this spike. But after two weeks, it went back down to people's baseline, so it went back to normal. And so we'd call that a state change on state evidence-based wellbeing or event-based wellbeing. So that's the single thing. And then we want to get the option of what it would be like to have a spike in something as a natural linear effect of work we've done. And now that's our new baseline. That's our trait. 

I guess what's been interesting since we are talking about the two fields, if you like, of science, of heroism, psychology, and then perhaps spirituality, the contemplative sciences is another way they can be called, is that they both have been inquiring into this same thing because, with both groups, you do get this temporary experience. So, for example, people that have had just an amazing experience where they're just watching a sunset or have deep either a prayer time or a meditation moment or something, and just everything falls away, and there's just like, oh, my goodness, there's just no issues right now. I know they're out there, but they're just not touching me. And there's a beautiful experience that we can have and then they come back out and it's like, how do I hang on to that or how do I get back there? 

And so we'd call that a state change, but the wish is that it would be a trait change. So in both the contemplative sciences, I think I'm probably going to now call that, and the other ones left with the same issue and the same question about that they exist and then how do we solve them. And I think it's very relevant to perhaps what we might call the path of mastery, which is in every area. Perhaps like in the gym, you might call this the journey of progressive overload to improve performance and increase your baseline each time. So now you've got a new baseline of strength or whatever. So in the heroic world, we would say, well, what would that be like? 

Interviewer:

If someone was predictably a hero, they could just pull it out at random, but it's just this is who we are. I think just going back to the question of, like, how do we do this? There is a difference between a single heroic act and an ongoing trait. How do we get there? What are the steps? 

Patrick:

Well, that is essentially what the next question is in terms of developing it as an ongoing trait. I know that there are existing things out there for people who want to navigate different behaviors, whether they be psychological or physical. Like you have just routine constructions or even the more comprehensive end, you get cognitive behavioral therapy. But in the case of developing heroism as a trait, what is the methodology? 

Yeah, I think a good question to spin off from that is, sounds funny, but why bother? Why am I interested in, I don't know, helping people? Why would a hero risk themselves at a train track? And I think the answer, which I love, that seems to naturally come in the field of mindfulness, which is under a lot of scientific scrutiny now, and hence it's a great place to be able to evaluate all this, is that it specializes in the training of selflessness, in dissolving ego, you could say. And that the natural expression of how you are back out in the world when the ego is dissolved or your sense of self is seen through its natural expression is altruism or compassion. So to me, it seems ideally placed for the science of heroism. Sort of inquiry, I suppose. 

Why it's relevant, is that sort of classic mindfulness does have a process, which I appreciate that it's not just a, how do I little meme I saw once someone in a meditation pose and the meme underneath it was hurry up, inner peace. I can't wait forever. And it's accepting that there is a process, there are steps. So the first is you could almost say study or inquiry, perhaps even a bit like school or whatever. It's a theory first before practice. So the first step is looking at and there are lots of amazing principles, how the cognitive processes occur, how I get unhappy. 

And starting to look at some of those ways in which, as we've discussed in the past, where I might get attached to the outcome of a certain event and so if it goes well, I feel good, if it goes badly, I feel bad. And just looking at the nature of my thinking process and going look, that's just the mechanics of how I seem to get happy. Is that sufficient? So that's the first step is the studies to inquire and then also to see, well if I didn't do all of that and I could kind of just come a bit more from the what would call it, as I say, that inner well-being place to that true nature. Would that work? Would that be a more predictable place to experience well-being? So that's step one. 

Interviewer:

It seems very reasonable because you're starting to build a foundation for, I think, heroic behavior because the person's now beginning to be less influenced by events affecting them negatively. So like if the train is coming and it's going to affect someone, there may be just more fearlessness or less fear because life is not so driven by the consequence of events that they might be driven by deeper principles, a more virtuous principle like this person, this human being needs help right now. So that's first and the second would be then is not just theory, it's sort of like practice. It's like how do I apply this to my life? So the second step usually is applying mindfulness theory to one's own life, reviewing your past, and evaluating the present. How do I be more skillful with this theory? 

Patrick:

So it's very practical in that sense and trying to overcome through lots of different practices and methods and techniques try to overcome that habitual way of reacting, you could say. So that's the second. And I'm saying all this is probably because if we're trying to build a predictable hero, what would be a sequential training system or process? And to me, mindfulness, perhaps there are other systems totally that are in different traditions. But to me, it's very relevant as a sort of building the fundamentals for someone who can act predictably. So that'd be the second bit, the practical wit theories first, practical second. And the third then is the contemplation or meditation steps. You're just trying to drop beneath all that thinking, feeling sensation, and get what we call direct insight, a direct experience. 

So we're not just thinking about it, not just applying it to our life, but we're having an experience rather than in a sense reading the book, we're there at the place, we're experiencing the nature of who we are, the stillness. And once I have uncovered and touched that, it's like there's a difference between understanding and knowing. And so now I'm in knowing territory. I know this is who I am. I know this is the experience of where I come from. And if someone gets a taste of that lovely experience of themselves, I would call it. That's what we'd call an amazing state experience. 

But the whole process of mindfulness is to increase using psychological terms, the frequency of that state, like how often I get to experience it, the duration of that state, how often so duration is then for how long I experience it, and then intensity, how deeply it goes. And what we're doing each time is building this kind of slightly long description. But what we're building here is frequency, duration, and intensity. So we're being nice little psychological methods that map and audit change if you could say. We're building a foundation of that deep inner, well-being space that could then, over time, become more stable. And then now we're moving from state experience into trait experience. And I think that's the foundation that if you're coming from that selflessly and altruistically or selflessly and compassionately, you're going to more predictably, potentially always act heroically. 

And I think at that point, perhaps we then have that capacity to be that perfect hero. 

Interviewer:

Yeah. And where all of this links to Mindfulness, if you jump on to Drpatrickjones.com, you can find a host of different content around mindfulness, as discussed by myself and Dr. Patrick Jones on the Morning Show previously. But in the meantime, Patrick, thanks for getting in touch with us this week. Hope to speak to you again soon. 

Patrick:

Yeah, it's a pleasure. And I just think these conversations are a great way to get this material out there because it helps people.  

Thank you. 

Interviewer: 

And to you. Thanks for coming on it.