Relationship satisfaction and Communication skills

TRANSCRIPT

Interviewer:

You're listening to Youth talk radio and currently on the drive show. I have on the other end of the line Dr. Patrick Jones, founder of Perth Psychologist, who if you're a regular listener of the show, you'll know, comes on air to discuss a different facet of our mental health each week. So Patrick, how have you been keeping this week? 

Patrick:

Yes. Good lachlan. Thank you. 

Interviewer:

Excellent. Now what I thought we'd look at today was relationship satisfaction and communication skills. I feel like for a lot of people that hear those two things together, they at once sound very separate, but they are interrelated and they depend one another. 

Patrick:

Yeah, communication skills actually seen as the number one predictor of relationship satisfaction. And it's funny that because sometimes people think, well, no, it's actually all about compatibility and all that kind of stuff. But when they've done studies and looked at all the predictors, whether it's intelligence or socioeconomics or compatibility, personality, all the things we think are like are important. The number one that comes up as the primary thing that makes people happy in relationship is their ability to communicate and more specifically is their ability to resolve conflict and not have this kind of fallout afterwards where they can actually be in a kind of an open hearted space again. So really important one to get under our belt because it has huge impacts not just for own personal relationships but also for our work environments and all kinds of things. 

Interviewer:

Yeah, and I feel like a lot of people will have encountered a positive interpersonal relationship at least once in their life and they can obviously would obviously be aware of the positive emotions that come from that and see that as a benefit. But what are some of the psychological benefits of interpersonal connection for human beings? 

Patrick:

Yeah, well, I'd say on a sort of a basic level, relationship, sort of satisfaction in terms of networks and connection, they've been found to be really important buffers for stress. Again, when we look at the predictors of quality of life, the five we looked at last week, the sort of top big ones, relationships, work, money, health and leisure of those top five relationships is the biggest one. And one of the reasons why they also say it's so important is because the networks do. Through the support we get with people who know us and connect with us, they seem to act as a buffer for stress. 

That capacity to be able to have things that are challenging and then to be able to have a place which is like a debrief place or someone that can get inside our world and get it from our experience. And that's where empathy is sort of critical. It's not always about problem solving, it's about actually being with that person on their journey in terms of whatever it is. So that's why it's really critical. The other bit is not just in terms of resilience or trying to manage difficult things. But it's also because it creates that opportunity for open heartedness and connection which is, you could say is sort of the foundation of why people do what they do is ultimately is the connection. I think there's Lenin who once said people don't die for an idea. 

They die for a person which I thought was staggering. Basically kind of the founder of communist Russia in terms of all those really important you could say, theories. And he was going, well, it's actually a person, not an idea that we think is the most important. So connection is super important for us as humans and it's important also to be skilled up in it so that we know how to maintain them when they get a bit rough. 

Interviewer:

And I think defining relationship as a connection is a good way of getting folks on board of exactly what a relationship is. Because I feel like when a lot of people hear the word relationship they're thinking instantly a romantic relationship between two romantic partners. But that could, of course, be a social relationship. It could be a working relationship, a familial relationship as well as a romantic one. But then how do you tell if those relationships are healthy? The ones that you're in? 

Patrick:

Yeah, for sure. Well, again, I think I may have mentioned it. The number one predictor of self esteem people have found in the research is social comparison which is a little unfortunate but that essentially means how am I compared to other people in areas that are important to me? So for example, like if you're a sports person or fashion person or an intellectual or whatever you are those areas are really important to you. And where you are compared to people that are important to you seems to have an impact upon self esteem. So I think that's the first thing is to check in terms of before we go to healthy is always to identify what's unhealthy and to be able to see that just to be really careful. 

Am I allowing social comparison or my comparison to others in terms of my relationships with others to affect my sense of self and what you might call self esteem? And if so, to try and adjust that so that self esteem or sense of self is coming from me rather than from where I am because I'm saying I'm pecking order. Does that make sense? 

Interviewer:

Yeah, of course. 

Patrick:

And then the other bit I'd say would be sometimes people think you've got to be independent which is a critical part. The goal is, in a sense, not to be dependent. So a healthy relationship seems to be the third place. Not so independent that you're disconnected and not self disclosing asking for help and being connected nor so dependent which is what we call like a codependent relationship. But the third version, which is what they call interdependent which is where you acknowledge that we do all have needs of various types which we can support each other to get, but also to be responsible for our own well being, which is the independent bit. So I think that interdependent version is a really good way of putting and probably the last thing to say is that the classic thing with codependency is talking about with relationships. 

The ideal form is where it's a little bit like two glasses of water, if you like. And rather than you being half filling up each other like, she completes me or whatever it is, it's more the ideal models where you're both full and you kind of play in the excess, which is more not codependency, but that interdependency of being able to kind of enjoy each other without that kind of sort of anxious need, if you like. 

And you can see there, of course, why communication would be a prerequisite for a healthy relationship. And I feel like a lot of people, when they've struggled to communicate at different times, whether it is in a specifically romantic relationship or any kind of relationship at all, including at work, they might feel like they're lost for words. Now, how do we best navigate our flow of ideas when this arises? Like, I can speak personally from experience in doing the stuff that I do for youth talk radio, you're positioned to sit before a microphone, communicate ideas that you know other people are going to hear. 

Interviewer:

But of course, that can be a little bit of a source of pressure and then eventually you just have a mental blank and you can't think of the right thing to say and before you realize you've gone about 10 seconds without speaking, just constantly trying to analyze what it is going to come out. So how can we best navigate that flow of ideas when this sort of thing arises? 

Patrick:

Yeah, right. Well, you've actually perfectly described part of what would be my response to that, and that is authenticity and self disclosure. So Lachlan, you're right up there not even queued on that one. It is about, I think, initially being authentic and sometimes there is a fear of consequence. And what that does is it sort of shrinks us, that phrase. There's nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people don't feel uncomfortable around you. And sometimes what we'll do is we will shrink because we're a bit fearful that if I'm authentic, there will be a consequence that either they won't like or I won't like. And I think that's the first step is that when we are maybe are a bit lost towards words, it's about sort of reconnecting to what's important to me and being true to that. 

And then the second bit is actually self disclosure, which is this is what's present. I'm finding this a little bit difficult, but within the context of and I'm bigger than that, like the hero, they say that some of the criteria when they've done research on heroism, they've looked at it's not that the hero doesn't feel fear, it's that they feel the experience. But they can also transcend it. They can also go not on my watch, even though this is hard. So I think when we may get a bit lost, it's just reconnecting to being authentic and then also being open about any difficulties that might be present and then just continuing to transcend that or walk through it. 

Interviewer:

Yeah, and I suppose a part of that would also be conceding that if the other person were to have a problem with you making mention of those difficulties or identifying those difficulties, you'd effectively sort of have to consider that it's not a worthwhile criticism on their part to criticize somebody for acknowledging difficulty generally. 

Patrick:

Absolutely. And I also think people there's some really nice work by Brene Brown on Ted Talks and YouTube on vulnerability and also openness. And again, she's a kind of magnificent researcher's, really got a lot of data behind her and she's touting vulnerability as a really important part of connections. And when we're talking about vulnerability, it's about just being open and people not caning you for that because they're not coming from a good place. They are. But even if that occurs, then it's like well, as that phrase goes, what people think about me is none of my business. It's like just because they're having that response, it doesn't mean you can't still be in a sense true to what you need to be. 

Interviewer:

Yeah, of course there was something you mentioned earlier in that answer that was to do with an intimidation around responding to someone where you felt that you might be set to be judged. And that can be a wall that you hit when it comes to approaching people and occasionally that suspicion of what they're thinking might be totally illegitimate. In fact, I think it's probably better to treat it as illegitimate because you don't know and you're never going to get anywhere if you just pretend that or sit in the mindset of being eternally the victim of judgment. So what advice do you have when. 

Patrick:

We because of that? If you do have that view, what you're saying is great. It means that you're then responding to this virtual reality that actually isn't the reality and of course your responses are now in response to something or someone that may not even be there. And it's actually a really nice exercise where you get people to you imagine someone that you perhaps don't like because of all these reasons. And then the exercise is you get your partner, the other person, to pretend that they're being them, but they're now totally converted and transformed and a totally nice person. But your job is to listen to them as if they're that horrible person that you think they are. 

And when you do that exercise, the person that is now being wonderful, their experience of you is that you just don't see them because you're just seeing them through that filter in your mind of what you think they are still. And they get the experience of you don't see me at all. You're just seeing your image of me. So what you're making is a really good point. There actually some good exercise to try and break that one down. 

Interviewer:

Yeah. And of course there are ways where that arises in the cases of people who you aren't familiar with and you build that idea up in their head. What advice do you have for when we might feel anxious or intimidated around commencing communication with people? 

Patrick:

I think the first step I'm always really strong in this in terms of the inner well being stuff and I think I mentioned previously that phrase you're not the boss of me. I think what that highlights is that we always need to stay connected to our internal sense of self versus that external sense of self. And the second part to that, I guess, is to then let go attachment to the outcome. So for example, if someone is being well, whether or not they're being that we're feeling anxious and intimidated, we like to always separate out what we're feeling and thinking versus what they're doing. But if we're experiencing that is to sort of regroup in terms of my sense of self, just remembering it comes from within, not from without, not from this person. 

And then the second bit is when we do let go that attachment to the outcome. What opens out is a chance for us to be more self expressed and obviously we might have to do that in a way that's relevant to the work context, if you like. But then if you're with people that are just your network, your circle, then that self expression or authenticity can be as big as it actually feels true for you. I think they're the really critical bits is connection to the sense of self that's internal versus external and then letting go the attachment to what they think about that, as long as you're being true to you. 

Interviewer:

And what we've been discussing this week is obviously, I think for particularly a lot of young people where this is when you're going through your teenage years and suddenly you're a little more self conscious around the kind of person that you are. And a big part of that is how you fit in with other people and in that way it's how your relationships operate. But then the crux of that being how you communicate in the midst of those relationships and from personal experience it almost felt like a bit of a catch 22 where you were either told or knew yourself that you needed to strengthen your communication skills. 

But the way of doing that was getting into a scenario where you were going to have to communicate and that was often what was being what was the source of anxiety that was contributed to by either your lack of communication skills or resulted in a lack of communication skills. So I think the question I wanted to ask, and it might sound that one, isn't it? It is, yeah. You hit a wall, it's like the snake eating itself. It just goes around. It's like that whole thing of I want to get a job, but every job requires experience, but I'm not going to get experience if I can't get a job, and the only way I can get a job is if I have experience. It's like that kind of loop. 

And this may sound like a silly question, and I did think of it as being potentially a little bit absurd to ask you, but are there any methods or exercises we can use in our own time? Like when we're on our own to strengthen our communication skills before we even commence an interaction with another person? 

Patrick:

Yeah, for sure, because communication is so critical. First one, I would say it's a lovely method, it's what they call a floor method, often use it whether it's mediations with organizations or relationships. But whilst it's a method, we can also just check our own speech when we're talking with someone, perhaps, where there might be a bit of a difficulty. And it's pretty straightforward. There's five steps, I'm going to summarize by five different words. And the first is you get the person who's the speaker to say their bit. And then first step is you paraphrase what they've said, just to sort of check that you've actually got it. So first step would be paraphrase. Second step would be to clarify. Is that right? Did I get that? 

And then the third, they might then go, all right, is there any more you want to say about that? So third step would be any more to add. And then they do their bit. And then each time you just do those three, you kind of loop those three, you paraphrase, you clarify and ask any more to add. And whilst that might sound a bit structured, it becomes very casual in the end. It's very easy to do. And then once that's done, you've now got their position, which is really critical. And then there's two more steps, validate and empathize. 

And validate would be then to just sort of try and get in their world and go, okay, so if you thought that, whatever, it can be an absurd thing that they're saying in your world as well, it doesn't matter, but you're just trying to get their view which validation could be. If you thought that the moon was made of cheese and there was a great deal coming up where we could invest in some technology to make the cheese. And I said, no, I can see how you might feel a bit disappointed now. You're not buying the argument, you're just trying to get in their world. The fourth step is validation and then the fifth one is empathy, which is and if you're feeling disappointed, that wouldn't be nice. I don't want that for you. 

I care about you and let's just see what we can do about it. So that five step process paraphrase clarify any more to add, repeat, rinse and repeats and then validate empathize is a super way just to do a little bit of a communication audit and just to check how much am I doing that, especially when I'm in conflict, because usually when in conflict we just go to rebuttal. They said this, you say that's not the case. And this little five step process I find can be very easily, especially if there might be something I'm trying to resolve. I can kind of lock into that option and it becomes quite a casual communication process, but it's super effective. I've actually used it in the minds mediating between companies and heaps of relationship stuff. 

So there's great ways that we can use something like this for our own life. 

Interviewer:

One of the things you were talking about, I think it was in response to one of my earlier questions around being intimidated by starting to communicate with someone and you're worried that they would be critical of you in some way. I feel like there are times when I've been criticized and there are times when I myself have been critical. You think about, okay, so then what kinds of criticisms are therefore possible to engage in when you're there with a friend or with someone that you think the social boundaries are such that you could potentially challenge someone on something they've said? 

Patrick:

Yeah, well, I guess it's also there's that really nice phrase I think Erickson said, which know in the space of rapport, anything is possible, but if there ain't no rapport, then it's pretty hard work. So sometimes if it triggers someone else's issues, then they immediately might drop straight out of rapport and experience it as completely differently. This highlights me, I guess something which I guess I want to counter with what I might have said earlier, which is when you're being yourself, I think that's really critical. But it's also important. I think I talked about love and truth. Being yourself you could perhaps say is the truth of things, I'm being true to myself, but then being loving, it might be that my truth of me being myself is a little problematic for that person in some form. 

And so then it just becomes a bit of just a decision what will serve both of those best so that truth doesn't be the only winner, you could say. And that might be, well, I might need to temper my self expression in this case because that's just going to be too much for them. Having said that, if we focus just on that and being loving, like they'll find that too hard and we all suppress what's true for us then truth doesn't win. And I think it's always important as a kind of a criteria to be able to just check in. How are both of those being met? So in the law, it's done in terms of, you could say, justice and mercy. 

Justice might be that this is probably what the law says, technically is appropriate, and mercy might say, but we see possibly there were extenuating circumstances that might have affected you or whatever else it might be, and therefore we choose a different ruling. So you could almost say that compassion or love trumps truth. So I do believe know out of the two of them, mercy is higher than justice. But I think that combo is really important when we're connecting with people. 

Interviewer:

Thanks for getting in touch with us again this week, Patrick. Hope to speak to you again next week. 

Patrick:

Indeed. All right. Thanks, Lachlan. 

Interviewer:

Take it easy.